Testimony of Nathan Bedford Forrest Before the Joint Select Committee of the U.S. Congress on the Ku-Klux, etc., Part 1

[Publisher's Note, by Gene Kizer, Jr. - On June 27, 1871, in Washington, D.C., Nathan Bedford Forrest testified under oath before the Joint Select Committee of the United States Congress on the Ku-Klux.ⁱ Forrest had been called to testify because the Committee thought that he and Gen. John B. Gordon knew more about the KKK than anybody else.

Ever since the end of the War Between the States, Forrest has been falsely accused of being the grand wizard and founder of the KKK. However, John Allan Wyeth in his famous biography Life of General Nathan Bedford Forrest writes about Forrest's testimony:

Forrest testified that while he did not take an active part in the organization of the Ku-Klux, he knew that it was an association of citizens in his state (Tennessee) for self-protection. There was a great, widespread, and deep feeling of insecurity felt by those who had sympathized with the South in the war, as a result of Governor Brownlow's calling out the militia and his proclamation, which they had interpreted as a license for the state troops, without fear of punishment, to commit any kind of depredation against those lately in arms against the Union. Forrest stated that he had advised against all manner of violence on the part of the Southern people, and when the Loyal Leagues, for fear of the Ku-Klux, began to disband, he urged the disbanding of the other society.ⁱⁱ

The Committee believed Forrest and concluded in their final report:

The statements of these gentlemen (Forrest and Gordon) are full and explicit. . . . The evidence fully sustains them, and it is only necessary to turn to the official documents of Tennessee to show that all Forrest said about the alarm which prevailed during the administration of Governor Brownlow was strictly true. No State was ever reduced to such humiliation and degradation as that unhappy commonwealth during the years Brownlow ruled over her.ⁱⁱⁱ

Forrest's testimony is fascinating and will be published in its entirety over the next few months. Here is Part I.]

N. B. FORREST sworn and examined.

By the Chairman:

Question. Where is your residence?

Answer. My residence is in Memphis, Tennessee.

Question. In what portion of the country has your business taken you within the last year or eighteen months?

Answer. Mostly between Memphis, Tennessee, and Selma, Alabama; that is, in a southeast direction from Memphis; I am on that line most of the time.

Question. In what business have you been engaged?

Answer. I am president of two railroads that we are trying to build in that country; they are now consolidated, but have been two up to within the last few days.

Question. Has your business brought you in contact, to a large extent, with the people of the country through which your road passes?

Answer. Yes, sir, it has.

Question. We desire to ascertain the manner in which the laws are executed in the Southern States, and the security there enjoyed for person and property. So far as your observation enables you to speak, will you state what are the facts in that respect?

Answer. So far as I know, I have seen nothing that prevented the law from being executed; I have not seen anything at all to prevent the laws from being executed.

Question. Do you know anything of any combinations of men for the purpose either of violating the law, or preventing the execution of the law?

Answer. I do not.

Question. I have observed in one of the Western papers an account of an interview purporting to have been had with you in 1868, in which you are reported to have spoken of the organization of what was called the Ku-Klux in Tennessee, their operations, their constitution, the numbers of the organization; and also a correction in one or two particulars afterward made by you of the facts stated in that interview. You recollect the article to which I refer?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Upon what information did you made the statement in regard to the organization and constitution of the Ku-Klux in Tennessee?

Answer. Well, sir, I had but very little conversation with that party.

By Mr. Van Trump:

Question. Do you mean with the reporter?

Answer. With the reporter. He misrepresented me almost entirely. When he came to see me he was introduced to me by another gentleman. I was in my office, suffering with a sick headache, to which I am subject at times, so that I was disqualified from doing anything. I was just going to my residence, and I said to him that I had nothing to say. That was the most of the conversation that occurred betwixt us. I remember talking to him may be three or four minutes. He asked me if there was an organization in Tennessee, and I told him that it was reported that there was. That, I think, was about the conversation that we had in regard to the organization. So far as the numbers were concerned I made no statement.

By the Chairman:

Question. I will call your attention specifically to the report of the interview, as reported in the Cincinnati Commercial of Tuesday, September 1, 1868; also to a letter in the paper, dated Memphis, September 3, and published in the paper of September 6, the letter purporting to have been written by yourself. In the interview, as reported in the paper of the 1st of September, these sentences occur:

"'In the event of Governor Brownlow's calling out the militia, do you think there will be any resistance offered to their acts?' I asked.

"'That will depend upon circumstances. If the militia are simply called out, and do not interfere with or molest any one, I do not think there will be any fight. If, on the contrary, they do what I believe they will do, commit outrages, or even one outrage, upon the people, they and Mr. Brownlow's government will be swept out of existence; not a radical will be left alive. If the militia are called out, we cannot but look upon it as a declaration of war, because Mr. Brownlow has already issued his proclamation directing them to shoot down the Ku-Klux wherever they find them, and he calls Southern men Ku-Klux.'

"'Why, General, we people up North have regarded the Ku-Klux as an organization which existed only in the frightened imaginations of a few politicians.'

"'Well, sir, there is such an organization, not only in Tennessee, but all over the South, and its numbers have not been exaggerated.'

"'What are its numbers, General?'

"'In Tennessee there are over 40,000; in all the Southern States they number about 550,000 men.'"

Is there any other portion of that statement incorrect than the portion to which you called attention in your letter?

Answer. Well, sir, the whole statement is wrong; he did not give anything as it took place. So far as numbers were concerned, I knew nothing about the numbers of the organization. It was reported that there was such an organization in Tennessee, in fact throughout the United States; but I knew nothing about its operations.

Question. I will read your correction on that point in the letter of the 3d of September. In that letter you say:

"I said it was reported, and I believed the report, that there are 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee; and I believe the organization stronger in other States. I meant to imply, when I said that the Ku-Klux recognized the Federal Government, that they would obey all State laws. They recognize all laws, and will obey them, so I have been informed, in protecting peaceable citizens from oppression from any quarter."

Is that the correction which you make of the statement that I read to you in regard to your saying that there were 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee?

Answer. I made that statement. I believed so then, for it was currently reported that there were that number of men.

Question. That correction goes to the number; that you believed it was so reported, and that you believed there were 40,000 Ku-Klux in Tennessee. Upon what authority did you make these statements that the organization existed?

Answer. I made it upon no authority, nothing of my personal knowledge at that time.

Question. Did you in this letter of the 3d of September correct all that you believed required correction in the account of the interview as published in the paper of the 1st of September?

Answer. I do not think I did. As I said before, I was very sick at the time and was unable to talk to this man. I did not talk to him five minutes. He said to me, "I will go and write down what you have said and let you see it." He went off, and I did not see anything more of him.

Question. I find that in your letter of correction you used these words: "The portions of your letter to which I object are corrected in the following paragraphs." Did you not correct all the portions of the letter to which you objected. Was not that the purpose of the letter?

Answer. That was the purpose of the letter, yes. That was the intention of it.

Question. Where did you obtain your information as to the number of Ku-Klux in Tennessee? You said it was reported and that you believed the report.

Answer. I got it from common reports circulated through the country.

Question. Can you give us any definite information of any particular person from whom you got that report?

Answer. No, sir; I never heard any one say that they knew any particular number of that society; just a report circulated through the country.

Question. Was it from the same source that you got the report that there were 550,000 in all the Southern States?

Answer. I never made that statement, because I knew nothing about how many there were.

Question. I find in the report of that interview another statement, as follows:

"'But is the organization connected through the States?'

"'Yes, it is. In each voting precinct there is a captain who, in addition to his other duties, is required to make out a list of names of men in his precinct, giving all the radicals and all the democrats who are positively known, and showing also the doubtful on both sides and of both colors. This list of names is forwarded to the grand commander of the State, who is thus enabled to know who are our friends and who are not.'"

I do not remember that there is in your letter any correction of that statement.

Answer. Well, sir, I made no such statement at all to this man as that.

Question. Did you correct that statement in your letter?

Answer. I do not know whether it was corrected in the letter or not. If it was not, I wish to do it here. I made no such statement. I did not have as much conversation with him and you and I now have had. There were gentlemen there who heard what was said. I was suffering very much with a headache at the time, and told him I could not talk to him, that I did not wish to talk to him. He asked me a few questions.

Question. Is this statement as reported in the account of that interview a correct statement:

"'Can you or are you at liberty to give me the name of the commanding officer of this State?'

"'No, it would be impolitic.'"

Answer. No, sir; I never made that statement. I have received a letter from that reporter, acknowledging that he did misrepresent me. I do not have it here. Afterward, when he wrote another letter stating that he went with me to Fort Pillow, and that I had shown him where the negroes were killed, and how the battle was fought, he went on to make statements of all the facts, which statements were entirely false. I had never traveled with the man ten feet in my life.

Question. Is the whole account of this interview a misrepresentation?

Answer. Not all of it. I told him that I believed there was an organization in Tennessee, and that it had been reported 40,000 strong. I told him that; I said that.

Question. I find these sentences near the close of your letter of correction:

"I cannot consent to remain silent in this matter, for, if I did so, under an incorrect impression of my personal views, I might be looked upon as one desiring a conflict, when, in truth, I am so adverse to anything of the kind that I will make any honorable sacrifice to avoid it.

"Hoping that I may have this explanation placed before your readers, I remain, very respectfully," &c.

I will put the question again: Did you, in this letter, correct all that you deemed a misrepresentation in the account of the interview with you?

Answer. I do not think I did, and my friends thought so afterward. But I am not accustomed to writing letters, or to be interrogated by reporters. That was something entirely new to me; I did not expect it.

Question. Is this statement in that account correct:

"'Do you think, General, that the Ku-Klux have been of any benefit to the State?'

"'No doubt of it. Since its organization, the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces and rode over the country, frightening negroes; but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased. You may say, further, that three members of the Ku-Klux have been court-martialed and shot for violations of the orders not to disturb or molest people.'"

Is that statement correct?

Answer. No, sir; not the last part of it.

Question. That is, as to the shooting of three members of the Ku-Klux?

Answer. No, sir; that is not correct.

Question. Is the other portion of it correct?

Answer. A portion of it is.

Question. That orders had been issued to stop using masks?

Answer. I did not say that orders had been issued, but that I understood orders had been issued. I could not speak of anything personally.

Question. Well, with your assent, I will put the whole of this account of the interview and your letter of correction, into the testimony. [See page 32.] I will now ask if, at that time, you had any actual knowledge of the existence of any such order as the Ku-Klux?

Answer. I had, from information from others.

Question. Will you state who they were who gave you that information?

Answer. One or two of the parties are dead now.

Question. Why were they?

Answer. One of them was a gentleman by the name of Saunders.

Question. Did he reside in Tennessee?

Answer. No, sir; he resided in Mississippi then. He afterward died by poison at Asheville, North Carolina.

Question. Did any other person give you that information?

Answer. Yes, sir; I heard others say so, but I do not recollect the names of them now. I say to you, frankly, that I think the organization did exist in 1866 and 1867.

Question. In what portions of the country?

Answer. I do not think it existed anywhere except in Middle Tennessee. There may have been some in a small portion of West Tennessee; but if there was any, it was very scattering.

Question. Under what name is it your belief it existed at that time?

Answer. Some called them Pale Faces; some called them Ku-Klux. I believe they were under two names.

Question. Had they an officer known as a commander?

Answer. I presume they did.

Question. Was their organization military in its character?

Answer. No, sir; I think not.

Question. Were they subject to command and drill in any military form?

Answer. They were like the Loyal Leagues, and met occasionally and dispersed again. The Loyal Leagues existed about that time, and I think this was a sort of offset gotten up against the Loyal Leagues. It was in Tennessee at the time; I do not think it was general.

Question. Had it a political purpose then?

Answer. I think it had not then; it had no political purpose.

Question. You say it was organized like the Loyal Leagues, or in opposition to them?

Answer. I think it was in opposition.

Question. Was the purpose of the Loyal Leagues political?

Answer. I do not presume it was; I do not know what it was.

Question. What did you understand to be the purpose of the two organizations?

Answer. I can tell you what I think the purpose of the organization that you first spoke of was; I think it was for self-protection.

Question. You now mean what is called Ku-Klux?

Answer. Yes, sir; I think that organization arose about the time the militia were called out, and Governor Brownlow issued his proclamation stating that the troops would not be injured for what they should do to rebels; such a proclamation was issued. There was a great deal of insecurity felt by the southern people. There were a great many northern men coming down there, forming leagues all over the country. The negroes were holding night meetings; were going about; were becoming very insolent; and the southern people all over the State were very much alarmed. I think many of the organizations did not have any name; parties organized themselves so as to be ready in case they were attacked. Ladies were ravished by some of these negroes, who were tried and put in the penitentiary, but were turned out in a few days afterward. There was a great deal of insecurity in the country, and I think this organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all.

Question. Do I understand you to say that the Loyal League organization in Tennessee countenanced or promoted crimes of the kind which you have mentioned?

Answer. I do not know that they promoted them; but those crimes were not punished; there was very little law then.

Question. Was this before the organization of the State government, or did it continue afterward?

Answer. Well, it continued so for a year afterward.

Question. How long, according to your information, did this Ku-Klux organization exist?

Answer. I think it was disorganized in the early part of 1868.

Question. Did it continue until after the presidential election?

Answer. No, sir; I think it was in the latter part of 1867, or the early part of 1868; I do not know the exact date.

Question. Where can we get the information as to the manner of its dissolution and the time of it?

Answer. I do not know where you can get it. I never got any positive information except that it was generally understood that the organization was broken up.

Question. Who were understood to belong to it?

Answer. Men of the Southern States, citizens.

Question. Did they speak to you without hesitation of the organization, as if it required no concealment?

Answer. No, sir; they did not.

Question. Did they deny or admit its existence?

Answer. The did not do either; they did not deny it or admit it. It was understood though, among the southern people, that this organization had disbanded about the time of the nomination of candidates for President of the United States.

Question. When they proceeded to carry out the objects of the organization, did they do it in numbers, by riding in bands?

Answer. I do not know; I never saw the organization together in my life; never saw them out in any numbers, or anything of the kind.

Question. Did you get the same information in regard to that as you did in regard to its origin and its disbanding?

Answer. Yes, sir; I understood that they patrolled communities, rode over neighborhoods.

Question. Did they go in disguise?

Answer. I suppose some of them did.

Question. Was that the general understanding?

Answer. That was the rumor.

Question. Did they proceed to the extend of whipping or killing men?

Answer. I heard of men being killed, but I did not know who did it.

Question. Was it done by these persons in disguise?

Answer. Well, yes, sir; there were men killed in Tennessee and in Mississippi by bands in disguise. There were men found down there disguised, white men and negroes both.

Question. Your residence is in Memphis?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Close to the Mississippi line?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did not the same organization extend into Mississippi?

Answer. I do not know whether it did or did not.

Question. Have you any knowledge of any secret organization in Mississippi?

Answer. I never heard of but one case where there was anything of that sort over there, that came under my direct knowledge.

Question. Where was that?

Answer. At Holly Spring.

Question. How long since?

Answer. In 1867.

Question. In that portion of the State of Mississippi through which your road runs, have you any knowledge of any outrages by persons in disguise having been committed since 1867?

Answer. Only one instance, and that was not an outrage.

Question. What was that?

Answer. At Greensboro, Alabama. Well, I heard of another one.

Question. What occurred at Greensboro?

Answer. Well, a man was taken out of jail for stealing horses.

Question. Did they release him?

Answer. Yes, sir. I was not there at the time; I was in Memphis at the time; they passed my camp on the road.

Question. Were they in disguise?

Answer. It was reported that they were.

Question. How late was that?

Answer. I supposed it was eighteen months ago; may be not so long as that.

Question. In what county is Greensboro?

Answer. It is in Hale County.

Question. What was the other instance to which you were about to refer a moment ago?

Answer. The other was a Eutaw, on the line of my road,.

Question. In Greene County, Alabama?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Through what counties does your road run?

Answer. It runs through Perry, Hale, Greene, Dallas, and Pickens Counties, Alabama; through Lowndes, Monroe, Pontotoc, Chickasaw, Union, Benton, Marshall, and De Soto Counties, in Mississippi; and Shelby County, in Tennessee. It runs across the corners of those counties, not directly through the most of them.

Question. What was the occurrence in Eutaw to which you referred?

Answer. That was the case of Miller, I think; I heard that; I do not know it to be so. It was currently reported there that this man was killed one night by a band of disguised men.

By Mr. Beck:

Question. Was it Boyd?

Answer. Yes, sir; Boyd was the name. Miller was an uncle of Boyd.

By the Chairman:

Question. Have you any knowledge of any visit by disguised men in the county of Pontotoc, Mississippi?

Answer. I have not.

Question. Have you heard of none there recently?

Answer. I heard something about some men being disguised coming there, and one of them was shot; but I do not know anything about it.

Question. Do you know a man in Pontotoc by the name of Pollard?

Answer. No, sir; I do not know him.

Question. Did you meet a man of that name there in 1867 or 1868?

Answer. I have no recollection of meeting a man there of that name. I was in the county in 1869, canvassing the county, and I made a speech in every civil district in the country, for subscriptions to the road I am interested in. In 1868 I made a speech at Pontotoc in regard to the same road, and I met a great many men there I did not know.

Question. Did this organization of Ku-Klux exist there at that time?

Answer. I do not think it did; I never heard of it.

Question. Had you any communication with Pollard about establishing it there?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. You did not know Pollard?

Answer. I never saw him or heard of him, that I recollect. I do not know many men there in that county, except those who were in the army. There was one regiment from that county that served under me, and I knew a few of the leading men in Pontotoc.

Question. Then I understand you to say that this whole statement, giving the idea that you knew of your own knowledge of the organization of the Ku-Klux, or that you knew of their numbers or their discipline, is incorrect?

Answer. I never said to that man that I knew anything about it.

Question. Had you ever a constitution of the order?

Answer. I saw one; yes, sir.

Question. Where was that?

Answer. That was in Memphis.

Question. Who had it?

Answer. Well, it was sent to me in a letter.

Question. Have you that constitution yet?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. What has become of it?

Answer. Well, I burned up the one I had.

To Be Continued

ⁱ United States Congress. Joint Select Committee On The Condition Of Affairs In The Late Insurrectionary States, Luke P Poland, John Scott, and Woodrow Wilson Collection. Report of the Joint select committee appointed to inquire into the condition of affairs in the late insurrectionary states, so far as regards the execution of laws, and the safety of the lives and property of the citizens of the United States and Testimony taken. [Washington, Govt. print. off, 1872] Web https://lccn.loc.gov/35031867. Forrest's testimony is in Volume XIII, Miscellaneous and Florida.

ⁱⁱ John Allan Wyeth, That Devil Forrest, Life of General Nathan Bedford Forrest (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1959), 550-551.

ⁱⁱⁱ Ibid.